S5E7: Malinda Lowder: How To Say No

00:00:11:01 - 00:00:35:24
Speaker 1
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of ASCII Anything presented by Moser Consulting. I'm your host, Angel Leon, Moser's director of personnel. We're glad you're with us for this episode of ASCII Anything. And with us today is Moser's director of marketing, Malinda Lowder, who joins us to talk about something that I believe everyone struggles with. I know I do from time to time, and that is how to teach your team to say no.

00:00:36:00 - 00:00:53:03
Speaker 1
I feel like everywhere you go, you want to please those who work with you, those who are around you and in the workplace. It is really easy to get into a habit of just saying yes to everything. This happens a lot because we think we need to say yes to everything. But how do you start making sure your team can say no?

00:00:53:06 - 00:01:14:19
Speaker 1
How can you professionally instill in your team that it's okay for them to say no? All that and much more with my guest, Mona, louder today. Linda, it's great to have you with us once again on Ask you anything to talk about. Really something that I think I know. I struggle with it. I know I've seen my team struggle with it, but we do sometimes have to say no to certain things and we're going to be diving into that.

00:01:14:19 - 00:01:15:09
Speaker 1
So how are you?

00:01:15:24 - 00:01:35:13
Speaker 2
Awesome. I'm doing great. It is great to be back here with you today. I love coming on the show. I love talking about fun topics, management topics, things. I think all of us feel and those of us who lead teams at work. I think that you see your team struggle with it. I see my team struggle with it and my, you know, my peers at work as well.

00:01:35:13 - 00:01:38:03
Speaker 2
This is an issue that that needs to be talked about.

00:01:38:03 - 00:01:51:02
Speaker 1
I know it does. I mean, with h.r. And recruiting, it's it's really hard to sometimes just sit there and actually say no to somebody. So let's start with the why. Why do we need to learn to say no at work?

00:01:52:03 - 00:02:09:03
Speaker 2
So, I mean, there's a lot of reasons why, but but these people we're talking about today, these are my people. This is an issue I've struggled with my whole life. Other people who are people pleasers, people who want to make everybody happy. These are also people who are burnt out. These are the people who are tired and they're burnt out.

00:02:09:08 - 00:02:34:08
Speaker 2
If you look at the statistics, you know, 61% of people in the workforce say they are burnt out. They are experiencing some level of burnout and at least 37% say they're overworked. They're just they're doing too much. And, you know, you can't help but wonder how much of that is because they don't have in their toolbox the ability to say no.

00:02:34:08 - 00:02:55:15
Speaker 2
The inability to say no is it's just a hugely common problem. Teaching your staff yourself, your your coworkers. This skill is going to benefit everybody around you. But it's hard because like saying yes, sounds like a good thing, right? I mean, there's been home movies about saying yes and it sounds like a good thing. That sounds like you're making people happy.

00:02:55:15 - 00:03:14:18
Speaker 2
It sounds like you're doing the right thing. Right. And we want to say yes. We want to say yes for a lot of reasons. The one I hear a lot of work is is avoiding confrontations. Like if you say no, somebody asks you to do something and you say no. You know, people who avoid confrontations, this is bringing up their pain point.

00:03:14:18 - 00:03:31:14
Speaker 2
Right. And you're going out, you're saying, no, you're having a confrontation with somebody. You don't know how that's going to go, how they're going to react. You also you just don't want to disappoint people. If you're like me, you don't want to disappoint people. You don't want up. You're selfish. I hate selfish people and I hate, you know, that feeling that somebody might think I'm being selfish about something.

00:03:31:20 - 00:03:51:01
Speaker 2
You know, sometimes people are just trying to get ahead and you think if you say yes to everything that comes at you, that you will move up at work, like that'll get you ahead. Right? Sometimes you just feel like you're going to miss out on an opportunity if you say no. And sometimes it just makes you feel important or needed that the person came to you.

00:03:51:01 - 00:04:12:01
Speaker 2
And so if I say no, you know who's going to do it? Or, you know, maybe they won't ever come to me again. But I mean, the truth is, though, we can't do everything like in the end, I believe you teach other people how to treat you. If somebody is treating you poorly, it's because you taught that person that that's okay.

00:04:12:01 - 00:04:32:03
Speaker 2
Right. And you teach other people your limits. And part of how you do that is by saying no when you've had enough. So you know, when you teach other people how to treat you, you have to be aware of yourself and you have to be aware of your own limits and where you're at on your scale of limits.

00:04:32:03 - 00:04:51:22
Speaker 2
If you don't know that the other person doesn't know that, how are they supposed to know? So like if you say yes to everything your boss says at work, even things that are outside of what you should be doing, you're going to reach a point of exhaustion and then resentment. And that person may not even be aware that you're anywhere near that.

00:04:51:22 - 00:05:30:06
Speaker 2
You just constantly say yes. And you're saying, I'm okay with this. I'm at a good place. And study after study has shown that overworked burnout employees actually get less work done. In the end, they make more mistakes, they're more likely to leave their jobs. So looking back at your teams, because we're going to do a lot of back and forth and this about looking at yourself and looking at your team that you lead maybe, or that you manage, but you know, looking at your team, you need to be sure that you're making a good example and that you teach them to say no.

00:05:30:06 - 00:05:34:05
Speaker 2
And, you know, and that you don't lose your team because they're burnt out as well.

00:05:35:08 - 00:06:01:20
Speaker 1
Some of those reasons that you describe, I think I identify with several those, but the one that really comes up to me and speaks to me directly is not to disappoint others because we all have a way that we look at ourselves professionally, in a way that we want to portray ourselves professionally. And so when I get questions about, Can you do this, can your team do this, I don't want to disappoint.

00:06:01:24 - 00:06:29:09
Speaker 1
And I think that's that's a perfectly honest thing to say. But also it's very hard because sometimes we want to say yes because of that reason, but we know that we need to say no. Yeah, because we don't have the bandwidth, the manpower, all these reasons that you can think of. But we don't want to disappoint our peers, you know, whether they're our director level folks or just just anybody else really.

00:06:29:13 - 00:06:51:05
Speaker 1
We don't want to do that. And then the other one that really speaks to me is missing out on chances, because I feel like that one, you don't know what you can what you can do if you don't do it. And sometimes out of something that you might think might not be doable comes out a great piece of work that you feel very proud of.

00:06:51:05 - 00:07:02:18
Speaker 1
And in those moments, you really prove not only to yourself, but obviously the people around you that you can do them. But at some point before you get to that process, you start doubting whether you can do that or not.

00:07:02:18 - 00:07:20:03
Speaker 2
And so you get yourself I mean, it's yeah, in the end it's going to be about knowing yourself. And a lot of people aren't fully self-aware, aren't very self aware. But, you know, there's never a clear answer. Like, are you right to say no? Are you should you push yourself? It's a question.

00:07:20:03 - 00:07:37:04
Speaker 1
It is. It's and it's very hard to get to that level. So let's get to that level. How do we say no professionally at work? I mean, this isn't like saying no to your eight year old. Shout out to my eight year old at 8 p.m. at night when they want ice cream and you want to put them out to.

00:07:38:16 - 00:08:03:00
Speaker 2
Ice cream, is it going to help you settle down in bed? No, but you know, you can use some of the same techniques that you use on your kid and you can learn these techniques at work and use these techniques on your child, too. But one of my most favorite things that has happened is practice. Like practice. I'm really big on practicing scenarios, either in my head or with someone even or just talking out loud.

00:08:03:00 - 00:08:30:09
Speaker 2
I don't like it when something surprises me. I don't like being blindsided. I like being prepared and it's because I don't really make good decisions. If I'm forced into a decision really quickly. And I know that about myself. So I try to prepare scenarios in my head that I might be facing on projects so that I know how to respond, because I know if it comes at me from nowhere, I'm going to have a poor response, know this about myself, totally know it, own it.

00:08:30:17 - 00:08:53:13
Speaker 2
So this is how I do. I practice. So when you practice, how you start as you go into the past, so think of when somebody asked you to do something and it didn't turn out well. You wished you had said no to that thing, right? And then you go over when you were asked to do it and replay it in your head and see how you could have responded to that differently.

00:08:54:00 - 00:09:13:13
Speaker 2
So somebody let's say somebody asked you to join a committee, Hey, you would be perfect on this committee. We oversee this thing. You have the right skills. Will you join it? And you're like, okay, this is an opportunity. This is my resume. This is a great committee. This is a thing. So you say, yes, you know, you're you're overbooked, you know, you're overcommitted.

00:09:13:13 - 00:09:34:18
Speaker 2
You know, your team is requiring a lot from you, right now. You join the committee. Now your calendars clogged up with meetings and it's not anything that helps your company. So it was a mistake. You should have said no to this. So, you know, go back in your head, practice Other responses say, you know what, I'm I'm currently using all my bandwidth.

00:09:35:00 - 00:09:52:03
Speaker 2
My team's getting up to date on these new tools. I can't do it right now or suggest someone else say, you know, I know this other person who'd be perfect for that or somebody on my team. You know, they're really interested in this cause they let me put them in there for you or ask them or even just like, I can't.

00:09:52:13 - 00:10:19:08
Speaker 2
I believe what you're doing, but I can't. Let me know if there's a smaller way I could help practice. Think about other scenarios. It's good to go backwards first, but then you can start putting it forward. Think about things that are coming up, project you're working on, things you think might be coming out. You think to yourself, Is this something I should say no to or yes to if it comes at me and then practice like, okay, I can't do it for this reason.

00:10:19:08 - 00:10:22:17
Speaker 2
So I'm going to I'm going to practice what that would be like to say that.

00:10:23:12 - 00:10:48:16
Speaker 1
Yeah, practice makes perfection. I agree with you on if you do commit to something and you have to backtrack. That's a good example of how to say no, even though it's it's in the past. But you still can do that and you still can do it with grace and do it properly so that the receiving party does not feel like you're being basically disrespectful, I guess, because you committed and then uncommitted to that time.

00:10:48:16 - 00:10:53:10
Speaker 2
I mean. Well, and even if you don't go back and commit to that thing, be prepared next time.

00:10:53:16 - 00:10:54:00
Speaker 1
Right.

00:10:54:12 - 00:11:12:15
Speaker 2
You know, because they're next ask maybe, hey, will you lead this committee? And then you have you need to be prepared for that. That's something that's coming at you in the future. You see it coming and you have to have that ready because again, for me, I don't make good decisions. If I'm pressed, if they come to me and say that, I would be like, Oh, sure, I could do that.

00:11:12:15 - 00:11:28:14
Speaker 2
But if I'm if I'm pre prepared and I know I'm going to say no to that, if they ask me and I know how I'm going to say no to it, that's a good boundary. That's a good way to to stop that. And then, you know, for my team, they I have a marketing team and I like to empower them to say no and healthy ways.

00:11:28:20 - 00:11:51:08
Speaker 2
When you're on a marketing team, a lot of people come and ask you to do stuff outside of our workflow. I said, Hey, just just design this for me. Just do this for me real quick that it's okay to do little tiny things like that. But having the words up front to deflect some of that, them being prepared with words helps like that sounds like an awesome project.

00:11:51:08 - 00:12:08:05
Speaker 2
Enter a ticket and we will get started on it. That's what I say to people because people also come to me and want me to just push it now. And I'm like, You know what? We have a workflow project, sound amazing. I want to work on it and have the team work on it. If you just put in a ticket for me so we don't miss anything, we will get it on the schedule.

00:12:08:15 - 00:12:11:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, that sounds better than saying no, put in a ticket.

00:12:12:04 - 00:12:31:08
Speaker 1
Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And that leads me to my next question because we talked about how practice could make this a perfect answer like the one you just gave. I think that's a great answer to a question like that. But why is it important to focus on the positive when you're really providing a negative response?

00:12:32:01 - 00:13:00:18
Speaker 2
It seems counterintuitive, but, you know, we don't want to make enemies. We don't want to upset people. We don't want to let people down. That's not what saying no is about. It's about healthy boundaries and it's about self-care. You need to learn to listen to yourself if that's not already something you do in your life. If someone is asking you for something and you know you are already too busy or would not be a good use of your or your team's time, don't just say no, right?

00:13:01:05 - 00:13:24:21
Speaker 2
You have to do other things. You recognize the importance of the project the person is coming at you with or how worthwhile it is. Say, just like I said, that sounds like an awesome project. I understand the importance of that project, right? I'm validating it. I mean, don't validate if it's not valid, but if you do see value in it, you know, acknowledge that, right?

00:13:25:07 - 00:13:51:19
Speaker 2
You don't want your know to be taken as a no to what they're doing, just a no to you helping spend a minute with them to try to help in other ways, offer other solutions. If somebody is asking you to do a specific little job, say, you know, there's a tool out there that will do this for you and I can connect you with that and it it'll automate all this for you or offer just any other solution that you can think of.

00:13:51:22 - 00:13:58:12
Speaker 2
Recommend someone else who can help or, you know, suggest something to try to get them another way to do it.

00:13:58:17 - 00:14:21:04
Speaker 1
You bring up a good point, but I also would offer up something about knowing what you're currently doing and how important that is, because somebody might bring you a worthwhile project, but you could also be currently working on a project that is as important as that one. So you have to know your your limits and your, you know, basically put priorities in your work.

00:14:21:04 - 00:14:39:15
Speaker 1
So when you're providing these answers, you also have to be to go back to your thoughts about why do people do not want to say no is you have to be honestly a little bit selfish when you are doing this? Because what if the project that you're currently working on, it's something that you actually are enjoying a lot?

00:14:39:15 - 00:15:03:20
Speaker 1
And you know, it's it's a little bit selfish, I understand. But you also have to prioritize those things because you're currently working on those and you have to focus on what you have in front of you and why you want to remain positive while providing a negative response to somebody. You also have to be a little bit selfish on making sure that you are completing those things that you're currently doing and that you might probably like.

00:15:03:24 - 00:15:28:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, well, and you have goals for, right? You yourself, your team and you have things you need to accomplish to make your job successful. And in the end, whether that that project may not help toward your goal and I'm not saying that's the only project you should accept, but if that project doesn't help toward your goal, you still need to leave rooms for the projects that help towards your goals, right?

00:15:28:18 - 00:15:49:16
Speaker 2
You have to be sure you have a room for that because if you focus a lot of your attention on this other project that is not helping your team or not helping your company and the area that you're responsible for, then that person's not going to be blamed when your goals don't get met and when your skills don't get met.

00:15:50:02 - 00:16:01:16
Speaker 2
And you know when the sales aren't what they should be. It's your responsibility. And part of your responsibility is monitoring that and making sure that your team is reaching their goals first, no matter what else comes at them.

00:16:02:00 - 00:16:09:04
Speaker 1
And that leads me to my next question. What about boundaries in the workplace? How might those help with saying no?

00:16:09:23 - 00:16:35:24
Speaker 2
Yeah, and really this is all about boundaries. I always recommend the book Boundaries by by Henry Cloud. It's a little bit of an older book, but I feel like it is a really good, healthy look at this issue and about setting boundaries and in all parts of your life. And then in our talk today, we're focused on saying no, but that's not the only area where boundary issues pop up.

00:16:36:07 - 00:16:58:21
Speaker 2
You can't say no too much. You can do too much. No. And some you know, I do too much. Yes, but some people do too much, you know, And that is putting up a wall to hide behind. That is like the opposite problem. People are afraid. They're afraid to make a mistake professionally. So when stuff comes out, then they're more likely to say no, no, for any reason.

00:16:58:22 - 00:17:22:13
Speaker 2
They'll they'll figure out a reason because they're afraid. And sometimes boundaries are about being too controlling, wanting to control everything, thinking that either you are the only person who can do it right, or that you just you just want more control and you want to climb or to do something like that. And and that's not really healthy either.

00:17:22:13 - 00:17:30:23
Speaker 2
So boundaries are not just about saying no, they're about saying no, saying yes when all of that stuff, it's all one big cloud.

00:17:31:05 - 00:17:59:16
Speaker 1
Right. That's an interesting take, because when you think of boundaries, you think of I need to set these walls up for X-Y-Z Reason. And when you put it into the perspective that we're talking about, the subject that we're talking about, it can help you in saying no in more. I don't I don't I don't know if meaningful ways is that is a way to say it, but it helps you in making sure that it makes sense for the person, for the receiver of that message.

00:17:59:20 - 00:18:10:12
Speaker 1
Why you're saying no. So like some of the things that you were saying in your previous answers about making sure that you say no, but you say no with a positive attitude, sort of way.

00:18:11:10 - 00:18:38:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, for sure. And you know, it's all about balance. And like I said, there's no right or wrong answer. There's no right or wrong thing. You should say yes or no, too. It's it's about knowing yourself, though, and thinking about it. And again, the the practice. I know it feels silly at first practicing these things are thinking about these scenarios, but it really, to me is the best tool you have to set limits and to figure that stuff out.

00:18:39:09 - 00:18:45:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. What last advice could we give our listeners on how to say no politely at work?

00:18:45:18 - 00:19:07:06
Speaker 2
It's really about knowing yourself, knowing your team, what they're capable of is about being honest about it, because you know, there's people that say, Oh, I can take more and more or more, but you know, those people who just keep doing that, they are going to crack. No, nobody can do everything or things are not going to be done correctly.

00:19:07:17 - 00:19:29:02
Speaker 2
It's about being self-aware, setting up boundaries. And the one thing we haven't really talked about is empathy. I mean, the person asking you is is asking for a reason. So, you know, be empathetic about that and try to understand what they're trying to accomplish and how you can help with that in a way that that's not a detriment to you or your team.

00:19:29:02 - 00:19:47:00
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's very important that when you say no, you put yourself into that person's shoes and what they're trying to accomplish, because at the end of the day, you know, you hope to be in a team work environment. So if they're asking you for help, it's because they do need your help is not it's not just because they want to make your day a little bit less.

00:19:47:23 - 00:20:07:07
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's because they do need your help. So think about what that person is going through, why they need that help. And if you can't provide that assistance right away, then set up maybe a timeframe or like you mentioned, if you do have a ticketing system where they can submit that ticket, have them submit it through the ticketing system and your team will get to it when they can get to it.

00:20:07:07 - 00:20:26:16
Speaker 1
But at least they know that they're in the queue and that it's not just, Oh yeah, hey, I'll give you a hand as soon as I'm done. Don't worry about it. They know that there's a process in place and that you will eventually get to their ticket and that you will give them the assistance that they need to fully 100% assistance that they need.

00:20:27:05 - 00:20:30:09
Speaker 2
Within your system and within your capabilities.

00:20:30:09 - 00:20:32:10
Speaker 1
So those are boundaries.

00:20:32:22 - 00:20:33:20
Speaker 2
Those are boundaries.

00:20:35:10 - 00:20:43:22
Speaker 1
And with that, we'd like to thank Melinda louder for joining us again and ask anything to talk to us about. How did your team how to say no in the workplace. Melinda, it was great to have you again.

00:20:44:07 - 00:20:45:18
Speaker 2
Thank you. It was great to be here.

00:20:46:08 - 00:21:03:06
Speaker 1
Thank you for listening in to this week's edition of Ask Any Day presented by Motion Consulting. We hope you enjoyed listening to Melinda Lauter. Talk to us about how to teach your team about saying no in the workplace. Join us next time when we continue to dive deeper with our resident experts and what they're currently working on. Remember to send us your ideas or topics.

00:21:03:06 - 00:21:26:14
Speaker 1
through our social media feeds. In the meantime, please remember to give us a rating. Subscribe to our feed wherever you get your podcasts. Until then, you've got to learn how to say no sometimes. So long everybody.