S5E9: Identifying and Overcoming Impostor Syndrome with Practically Speaking Alex Perry

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Speaker 1
Go.

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Speaker 2
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of ASCII Anything presented by Moser Consulting. I'm your host, Angel Leon, Moser's director of Personnel. We're glad you're with us for this episode of ASCII Anything. And with us today is a special guest. It's good to be talking to us about imposter syndrome. Joining me today is Alex Perry, who's the CEO of Practically Speaking LLC and host of the Crash Courses in Communication Podcasts and author of Minivan Mogul A Crash Course in Confidence for Women.

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Speaker 2
Her passion for communication comes from spending nearly two decades as a speech language pathologist helping people regain the ability to talk after illness or injury. Alex is a motivational TEDx speaker, facilitator and mentor. She helps others speak and share their stories with confidence using strategies she's learned the hard way throughout her career. Her background includes advanced work in adult neurology and emotional intelligence.

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Speaker 2
Alex blends her scientific approach, speaking with her love of storytelling and humor into her work with individual clients and corporate teams. Most importantly, and I agree with this, she's a mom. Minivans driver and front row fan of her clients. Alex, it's great to have you with us and ask anything. I am very much looking forward to this topic because I, in full transparency, have suffered from this.

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Speaker 2
But first, Alex, welcome.

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Speaker 3
Thank you so much for having me. And thank you for that wonderful introduction where you emphasized Mom, the ease in my heart into a bazillion pieces. So.

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Speaker 2
Well, I said, I know I'm a dad. Mom in my family is right across from me right here. So I love my wife. I love my the mothers out there. So this is this is great.

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Speaker 1
Real quick, before we get started, since we're talking moms the day we are recording, this is my mother's birthday. So if she ever accepts the invite to listen to an episode. Happy birthday, Mom. Can't believe you're 29 again.

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Speaker 3
Happy birthday, Mom. Happy birthday, son. Is very. I think he's achieved well for being so young.

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Speaker 1
Yeah, well, I'm only like nine. I'm nine.

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Speaker 3
You're nine. This fabulous. I like that. I can just be.

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Speaker 1
Your beard is a glandular condition, but it's fine. Yes, Yes, I love it.

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Speaker 2
So let's start with what imposter syndrome is. What is the meaning of this term?

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Speaker 3
I want to be really clear at the outset. It says syndrome. However, what we know now, it was first coined in 1978, so syndrome should only be taken within that context. But what they meant by that, when the researchers discovered what imposter syndrome was, were pervasive feelings of self-doubt that impacted an individual's ability to function within their workplaces and in their world.

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Speaker 3
And so I like to tell people it's a universal experience for most. Most of us have experienced at some point or another. And I'm always looking at it from the context of how much does it impact us on a day to day basis. But those feelings of doubt, those feelings like of being a fraud and, oh, I don't belong here.

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Speaker 3
I don't belong at the table, they're going to think I'm dumb, you name it. That's what imposter syndrome sounds like.

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Speaker 2
And they come in all shapes and sizes and variety because it doesn't just stick to the workplace.

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Speaker 3
It is pervasive throughout life, and it hits people in lots of different age groups and industries. No one is exempt from it. There are people who are a little more likely to have it. But I, at least in my own personal experience, anecdotally, have never found any particular. This is only a women's issue where it's only at this personal issue, where it's only that it's everywhere.

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Speaker 3
And especially if you're a high achiever and you like to do well.

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Speaker 2
Right. Right. I especially that. So let's talk about what is the onset of imposter syndrome. How could somebody tell that they're suffering from this?

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Speaker 3
Well, the first thing is, is what are you saying to yourself in your head? So if you are constantly plagued with thoughts that keep you from doing the work that you need and want to do, that's a great sign that you might be suffering from some imposter ish feelings. Another way that you can assess whether or not that you are suffering from some imposter syndrome is Do you use catastrophic language?

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Speaker 3
Is everything a disaster? Right? I look at people all the time and I say, Oh my gosh, Somebody will say, Oh my gosh, that meeting went off the rails. It was a train wreck. I'm like a train wreck. A real train wreck is a train wreck to me. We know what train wrecks look like. They're they're real bad.

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Speaker 3
The fact that the meeting happened and not everybody was either on the same page or that we didn't all walk away with a takeaway. That's not a disaster. That's just poor organization. So if you are somebody who is constantly telling themselves, said that you're a fraud or that you're a failure, that that you're a disaster, that is a sure fire indication that you've got some pretty doubtful thoughts going on in your head.

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Speaker 3
And that's painful. I don't like to see people live in that space.

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Speaker 2
No. And using that language, I agree with you. It's kind of taking what, as you mentioned, maybe it's for organization, poor communication within the teams, but it's kind of taken that detail. I'm not going to call it a small nature, but detail within the meeting and just basically abruptly like just enlarge it and make it seem like it's so huge when it really was just probably something small and some misunderstanding of communication.

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Speaker 3
Yes, something that's easily remedied. And so I'm curious, can I ask you a question? I'm sure you said at the beginning that you have impostor thoughts. What are they sound like in your brain? I think that with us.

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Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. So I would say and I've shared this with some leaders within organizations that I've work, especially when you're put in a leadership position, it's kind of hard because you see yourself and you want to make sure that people that follow you follow you for the right reasons, and that you have the best intentions when you make decisions for everybody involved, that sometimes you cannot please everybody with your decisions.

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Speaker 2
So I know you're making a face elicits skepticism. But it's it's one of those things that I struggle the most. And I've talked about this in previous episodes where we can't please everybody with our decisions as leaders, and sometimes they're going to hurt or what's the word I'm trying to say? There's going to be some loss in thoughts because of decisions that we make.

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Speaker 2
So obviously trust could be an issue. And so, you know, I personally don't want that. I like for people to be on the same page, but sometimes I have to make decisions that don't appeal to everyone and that rubs people the wrong way. And so then I start thinking, what have I done? Is this the right decision, my really making the right decision for everybody?

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Speaker 2
Or am I just looking at one set of the people that I manage or one set of people that are going to be impacted by this? And I'm looking at them positively and the other side negatively. So all these different thoughts that you get from a simple decision or maybe a more drastic decision, but they still are. They still, you know, they're going to hurt somebody and you don't want that.

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Speaker 2
I don't want that. So that for me is just a brief example of that.

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Speaker 3
Oh, my gosh, that's such an incredible example, because what you clearly illustrated was doubt and decision. And now I am second guessing myself seven ways to Sunday. I don't know about you, but I have done this with dinner. I'm like, was this really there? Right. Not everybody's happy with dinner and now everybody is somebody thrown a fit. And I mean, that's a very small example, but it does it transitions into the workplace where you make a decision based on the information that you have and then other people get uncomfortable.

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Speaker 3
So how do we then stay comfortable knowing that we may have context as leaders that not everyone else has getting comfortable with the idea that as a leader we don't always have all the information. And so sometimes we make decisions based on the information we had at the moment, and that's going to make somebody uncomfortable. So I think what you're saying is a very normal experience for leaders that care.

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Speaker 3
So what I find with folks that struggle with impostor ish thoughts or doubtful thoughts, it's because we genuinely care and we want to be doing the right thing and we want to be moving people forward in the right direction. So I love that you you pointed out you're like, I'm going to make somebody uncomfortable and like, yes.

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Speaker 1
You hear.

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Speaker 3
Every time. Every time. And that's the biggest challenges that faces leaders. Because if we allow that self-doubt to stop us from making a decision, to stop us from doing what we know is right, that's where we get into big trouble.

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Speaker 2
Yeah. When I make decisions, I always try to put myself in everybody else's shoes so that I can understand what feelings, what that decision is going to make for them. And so it's always that thought of doubt just creeps up in my mind and just, you don't know until you do it and you let the team know or the group of people know, and then you see their reaction and you're surprised to learn that some people agree, some disagree, and that maybe the people you thought would agree don't really agree.

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Speaker 2
You're like.

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Speaker 1
Mm.

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Speaker 3
Yes. And then managing other people's doubts and managing other people's lack of certainty because the truth is, if you wanted to boil this down to like one very succinct thing, it's uncertainty. We try to make certainty out of things that are uncertain and that does cause doubt. And we can do things to not let it cripple us and reinforce the idea that we are in the right place, at the right time, doing the right things to the very best of our abilities.

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Speaker 3
We're not going to get it right every time or just not. So can we let perfectionism go and keep moving forward?

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Speaker 2
So we talked a little bit about doubt, but what other symptoms are associated with this?

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Speaker 3
You will see people procrastinate. It's generally driven by perfectionism, so people who really care might suffer from something like imposter syndrome often view themselves as perfectionists. Perfectionists will often procrastinate out of fear of getting something wrong. You mentioned it and I go, I may not do this because I don't want to be wrong and I don't want to piss off George right?

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Speaker 3
Like George is scary. George I really it's amazing how one person can stop us from doing things too great. One person, one white, one squeaky whiny person. I know their picture. You picturing them in your head right now, as you listen to this, you're like, Yep, I know exactly what you're talking about, but I am so that perfectionist that having to get it right, that fear of not nailing it will often stop people.

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Speaker 3
So if you find yourself unable to move, if you find yourself, here's a great symptom I go to write an email and it takes me 45 minutes because I'm so worried about how it's going to sound that I take 45 minutes to write the email. I go back and rewrite it. Then I pop it into what is it, Chat GPT and then run it through Grammarly.

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Speaker 3
And then I have seven other people read it and I'm not saying that you should just send. Yeah, there's the opposite end of the spectrum of willy nilly emails. Don't do those, please don't do like what's so angry when I send it to you. But, but when you overthink is overthinking your words, overthinking your emails, overthinking your decision making process those are sure signs that you are suffering from the imposter experience and you're making life harder for yourself.

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Speaker 3
And I hate that because you don't have to. Because at the end of the day, a lot of our work is just not that serious. We're not doing unless you are and you have to it where we're not doing life and death work here, we're doing very important work. But this isn't life or death. So how do we frame things in a way that allows us some ability to be imperfect, to make mistakes, to let go of perfectionism and drive for excellence instead?

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Speaker 2
And that you mentioned the one person. I think that's a catalyst for a lot of people. I'm not.

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Speaker 1
Is.

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Speaker 3
Brian.

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Speaker 1
Garner. Thank think it's I had an acute flare up of imposter syndrome this past Friday. We had an offsite event in a room that we didn't have access to beforehand and like 10 minutes and the projector turns itself off.

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Speaker 3
Oh yeah.

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Speaker 1
I'm like, there's like 50 people in the room for this information. So I go up and I'm like, Hello, everybody. I'm the Abby support. Hold on. Just my job is to appear calm while in my head I'm like, Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. Oh, God. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Get it going.

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Speaker 1
10 minutes later, it shuts off again. I'm like, Oh, good. You know that stress dream where you're back in school giving a presentation, but you're in your underwear? I am living the a version of that, except I can't wake up. Perry finally got in contact with the building. People had them bring a back up projector and it was fine from then on.

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Speaker 1
But just while I'm up there, just in my head, it's like, Oh, you know, I had a good run. I fooled everybody for like 23 and a half years. Today's the day everybody finds out. I actually have no idea what I'm doing. And I'm really terrible at this. And I'm going, I'm just this is it. The jig is up.

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Speaker 1
Goodbye, everybody. Because my, like, responding in real time. My job is to appear calm while trying something and then trying something else and trying something and just doing that until I find a way to make it work. Yes. So like a duck on top of the water, I'm like to teach you to do. But underneath my feet are just like, Oh, God, no, this is it.

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Speaker 1
That's it. Here we go. I'm done.

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Speaker 3
Oh, my gosh. Can I point out something that you said that I think is really critical? So when we have those impostor thoughts or we're just absolutely crushed with doubt because something, something unexpected has occurred, it's amazing how quickly we bury our 23 years of experience. We just throw that out the window. We're like.

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Speaker 1
I couldn't.

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Speaker 3
Possibly know how to fix this or handle it. So that immediate self-talk that says, I don't know how to handle this, I don't know what to do when in fact that's not true because you've handled a million things that are similar, maybe not this exact scenario, but at this point in the game, as working professionals, most of us, even as brand new professionals, if there's a brand new professional listening, you have handled something that has gone wrong.

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Speaker 3
You just have. And so you do have a basis of learning that you can draw from. And so I encourage folks to remember that. But it goes past like.

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Speaker 1
20.

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Speaker 3
Three years. I fooled them for 23 years is what you said.

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Speaker 1
Yeah. I generally approach things with confidence, like, I will figure this out. Why? Because I always have before, but there's always that tiny creeping thought in the back of your head, like, you know, there's going to come a day when there's going to be something. And I don't figure it out. Is that today?

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Speaker 3
Oh, and what happens if it does?

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Speaker 1
Oh, well, do you.

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Speaker 3
Ever, you know, do you ever play that out Like is is the world actually going to collapse?

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Speaker 1
Well, and I didn't fix it. That projector did not work.

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Speaker 3
Right.

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Speaker 1
There's always something else you can try. Mhm.

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Speaker 3
See you guys. Brian should be coaching this. Go Brian. He's like let me tell you how to deal with imposters.

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Speaker 1
I'm always something else you could try.

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Speaker 2
But see, the thing that I find fascinating is that it's not your fault. It's not like it wasn't really your fault. It was really the equipment's fault. And when you initially set it up, you set it up so it would work. But then for some reason, every 10 minutes, it kept shutting down. So you're sitting there doubting your 23 years of experience when in fact it wasn't really anything that you did.

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Speaker 2
It was really a faulty piece of equipment that didn't really. So it's interesting how we in the moment, we don't think about that. We we are so pressured into, oh my God, I've got to fix this. But then you start those thoughts start to level and creep in. And so we forget that. Wait a second. It's not really my fault I'm freaking out because I have 50 people here trying to see this information, but it's not my fault.

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Speaker 1
I can't fix this thing that I should not have to fix in the first place. Right? Right. It's like I don't have ownership, but I feel responsibility right then that's within my sphere of influence. And that's my job.

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Speaker 2
That's. That's why we're freaking out. Yes.

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Speaker 1
Yes. Okay, time to fix it.

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Speaker 3
What will everybody think?

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Speaker 1
Yeah, I'm up on stage waving like, Hey, everybody, I'm the guy that's ruining your presentation and ruining ruin.

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Speaker 3
I'm making it spicy for you.

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Speaker 1
Yeah.

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Speaker 2
I'm interesting.

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Speaker 3
We're going to make it interesting for you guys.

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Speaker 1
Like card tricks. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My guys, I was Ty.

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Speaker 3
As a speech language pathologist. The thing that we were taught to do was to be able to walk into a room with nothing but a pen. Part of our training was you need to be able to go in and hold an entire hour long session and, you know, brain injured patient smiling because it didn't matter. Like, all you get is a pen.

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Speaker 3
Because what that forced us to do is rely upon everything that we had in the room. It was it was a great example of learning to rely on your own skills and figure out, oh, my gosh, we are way more creative than we give ourselves credit. You joked about doing magic tricks, but hey, if it came down to it and that's what you had to do to keep the audience engaged for a few minutes while somebody swapped out the projector hack Yes, please do that, because that is much more I'm going to say, emotionally intelligent and communication savvy than running away out of fear because I'm going to guess that everybody in that audience can

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Speaker 3
relate to that moment of, Oh my gosh, the technology's not working.

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Speaker 2
Yeah.

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Speaker 3
That's tough. Oh, my gosh.

00:18:03:03 - 00:18:17:01
Speaker 2
And again, it's not his fault, but the fact that that technology is not performing, you start doubting, why is it not performing? Is it because of the setup that I did? Is it because then you go into that cycle that he that Brian explains?

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Speaker 1
So it's and we got at the end of the event we got several compliments me and Ashley another person here at Mosier shout out to her was up in there sweating through her shirt at the same time I was sweating through mine, just trying different things and sticking with it. So many thanks to her, but we got a lot of compliments at the end, like, Hey, thank you so much for the support, great job to address it and fix it in the moment.

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Speaker 1
You know, just thank you so much. Just like sitting there trying to dry out like, Oh, you're welcome. You know, to have that's why we're here. Happy to help. But just in the moment, hoping, hoping against hope that it'll just work.

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Speaker 3
Yes. Well, and I think that's the piece When I think about how imposter syndrome holds people back, it can be a real struggle to move past the thoughts of disaster and just say we're going to make the best of it. And so oftentimes, like I think about the brains of the world out there that wouldn't even go try to set up the 50 person conference.

00:19:17:21 - 00:19:39:24
Speaker 3
I see so many people hold themselves back from taking on a presentation or taking, you know, asking for a raise to having a conversation with somebody they've never had a conversation with before. They're so doubtful about their ability to handle things when they go wrong that holds them back. And that's not what I want to see in the world, because mistakes are inevitable and we can move forward if we have the right mindset.

00:19:39:24 - 00:19:50:21
Speaker 3
And most of the time, even if we do babble, people will cheer us on. We love to root for the underdog, right? We love to root for the person that little because you're like, Oh, that's uncomfortable. And I've been there too.

00:19:52:06 - 00:19:58:09
Speaker 2
And so that actually Segways perfectly through my next question because how can someone deal with imposter syndrome?

00:19:58:21 - 00:20:19:19
Speaker 3
MM Yeah. First of all, be aware, be aware. So I'm sure at Mosier you guys talk a lot about self-reflection as a leader and leader as self first. So one of the first things I have folks do when I'm talking with them about imposter ish thoughts is I have them actually capture their thoughts, have them write them down.

00:20:19:19 - 00:20:44:04
Speaker 3
And I say, okay, let's run through an example. Brian, what were you thinking about in this book, in this particular scenario? What are the things that you say to yourself inside of your head? And sometimes what I find is that I get a litany of things that people tell themselves that are absolutely horrendous. They're so painful. If you are calling yourself an idiot every day, how on earth can you expect yourself to be successful?

00:20:44:04 - 00:21:03:09
Speaker 3
That is literally I mean, my dad used to say a phrase. He said beatings will continue until morale improves. Why on earth if the only person that you are going to talk to the most in the entire world is yourself. And that's true. And I can say that because I use a lot of words. I use many words.

00:21:03:09 - 00:21:22:24
Speaker 3
I talk a lot, but I still only talk to myself the most. And I know what it's like to just beat myself to death and how exhausting that is before I even got out of the bathroom first thing in the morning, I had said 17,000 negative things, and that's part of how our brain is wired. By the way, 80% of our thoughts are negative.

00:21:23:14 - 00:21:42:00
Speaker 3
So holy crap, we got to fight. Like, if you're going to be a leader, you've got to fight like heck. These thoughts. So first of all, develop some awareness of it. As you develop awareness of it, acknowledge what could be true. So listen, I'm not a Pollyanna. I know that. Well, okay, maybe I am, because.

00:21:42:20 - 00:21:43:17
Speaker 1
I sort of get.

00:21:44:03 - 00:21:47:01
Speaker 3
Like, I don't know, I was doing it twice. And you're really positive?

00:21:48:14 - 00:22:09:05
Speaker 1
Well, it's thinking about the fighting. It's, you know, like, it's not all the time, but situationally negative self-talk, I realized at some point is like, you know, if anybody else in the world talked to me, the way that I talk to myself, sometimes we would be in a fight. Yeah, there would be a problem. You know, it's a why why would I do that to myself?

00:22:09:05 - 00:22:30:18
Speaker 3
Yep, 100% so. And sometimes we have thoughts. Again, there's this space in place that says sometimes our negative thoughts. We need to honor our negative emotions before we can move past them. So I leave a little bit of space for that. But if you're just beating yourself up for absolutely ridiculous things, that's not helpful. So first thing, because you ask like, how would I know that I'm suffering from this.

00:22:30:18 - 00:22:45:21
Speaker 3
You gave a second example on how where you talked about just constantly doubting your decisions, the inability to make decisions and stick with them, the inability to commit, I'm going to write something down. I'm not going to run the marathon, I'm going to run the marathon. I'm going to ask for the raise. I'm not going to ask for the raise.

00:22:45:21 - 00:22:56:10
Speaker 3
I'm going to ask for the raise. No, I'm not. Okay. I sat down with my boss and I'm going to ask for the raising. I'm all set to go. But he looked at me funny. So now I'm not. He looked at me funny. He must know that I'm going to ask for a raise. So I'm going to rate.

00:22:56:10 - 00:23:20:12
Speaker 3
So future surfing predicting things going wrong at the beginning is another way. Like you just surf right into. I usually say my imposter syndrome folks are worst case scenario masters. They will tell you every possible thing that could go wrong, like way to manifest, stuff that could go wrong. What would happen, right? Oh my gosh. Can you imagine if you gave yourself like, what would happen?

00:23:21:03 - 00:23:23:00
Speaker 3
Who asks you that question?

00:23:23:07 - 00:23:23:13
Speaker 1
Thank.

00:23:24:18 - 00:23:42:20
Speaker 3
So if you are doing that, if you are trapped in perfectionism, if it takes you a very long time to make decisions, if you are, would view yourself as an overthinker Those are all of those things that are signs catastrophic language. I'll be ruined. I'm a fraud. I am a fake. What if they find out that I don't know?

00:23:43:00 - 00:24:00:12
Speaker 3
A lot of my work with imposters in the professional world stems from that? I don't know. What if I have to say? I don't know. I have watched professionals drive themselves into feats of unbelievable productivity, all based around the fact that they don't want to say, I don't know. And I'm like, Wow, that is a lot of work.

00:24:00:16 - 00:24:02:02
Speaker 3
I don't know. Is wastewater.

00:24:02:10 - 00:24:04:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. Oh yeah.

00:24:04:20 - 00:24:09:10
Speaker 3
I like you're really going to come up with every answer. Have you met Google? I can't out Google.

00:24:09:10 - 00:24:09:22
Speaker 1
Google.

00:24:10:03 - 00:24:14:05
Speaker 3
I think we have so much access to information. How could you possibly know?

00:24:14:15 - 00:24:15:24
Speaker 1
Yeah, that's tremendous pressure.

00:24:15:24 - 00:24:26:16
Speaker 3
So those are just some of the things. The gamble I could give you lots more, but I bet as I see you guys both sort of smiling and nodding, you're like, Yep, yep. Take it off the list. Take it off list. The things that I do, things that I do.

00:24:27:03 - 00:24:47:16
Speaker 2
Well, I would say that that last piece about the I don't knows. I don't know, but that's the perfect phrase that I always use all the time and I have no problem using it. Now. The example I gave about out, that's that's something that I've had in the past. But the I don't know piece, I have people around me that are experts in their fields.

00:24:47:16 - 00:25:08:06
Speaker 2
I am I consider myself an expert in human resources and I don't know every answer to every human resource question, but I have four more people that work with me that might. And so to me, the lack of willingness to say, I don't know is something that I would never have, because I don't mind saying I don't know.

00:25:08:06 - 00:25:19:15
Speaker 2
I don't mind looking outside of my circle, outside of myself to find that answer. And that to me is I think it's important that everybody has that and everybody knows that it's okay to not know.

00:25:20:04 - 00:25:49:17
Speaker 3
The more that we can have leaders like you demonstrating that, the better, because many people confuse the leadership with having all the answers. The person at the front of the room who can say everything, they confuse that. And that's not the case. Leaders need their people. We need other people to help us with all of the things to help with our blind spots, to help us spot the thing that we can't see, to help us gain perspective that we may not have had.

00:25:49:17 - 00:26:00:07
Speaker 3
So I love it. That I don't know is part of your vocabulary. I'm guessing based on what I have seen, that that's a huge part of Mozilla's vocabulary and that you guys model this really, really well. Keep that up.

00:26:00:12 - 00:26:21:06
Speaker 2
We do. And I mean how to ourselves in the back. But we do we have an excellent team of tech experts and even those that are in the tech field of finance and h.r. Folks that we feed off of each other and the way i see it is you're building somebody else when you don't know because you're letting them give you that data and you're learning at the same time.

00:26:21:06 - 00:26:33:04
Speaker 2
So, like, i go to brian when i don't know anything about video and pictures and Avi and all that stuff, I go to this man because he knows everything that there is to know. Even when he doesn't know, he'll find somebody else. It does.

00:26:33:04 - 00:26:54:19
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's backups to backups. If I don't know something, I'm confident that someone else at Mosier is going to know that. And if somebody else that Mosher doesn't know that I have confidence beyond that, that we will figure it out or we will find the answer because our specialty isn't necessarily knowing everything, but we are able to figure things out like that.

00:26:54:22 - 00:27:05:20
Speaker 1
That's definitely one of our specialties. If I don't know it, I'll figure it out, you know, and I again have the confidence that I will figure it out. If I need to figure something out, I will. Why? Because I always have before.

00:27:06:03 - 00:27:21:08
Speaker 3
Mm. Oh, I love that. On how can I point out something that you said that is a hallmark of someone that might have imposter syndrome or imposter ish thoughts is you said, I don't want to pile ourselves on the back. So it's that Midwestern humility.

00:27:21:08 - 00:27:24:18
Speaker 1
The bit that says I couldn't possibly be successful.

00:27:25:22 - 00:27:51:03
Speaker 3
We couldn't possibly have like this incredible community, and I'm picking on you a little bit, but only because it's such a clear example. When you see people who are suffering this way, they will not take credit for the things that they have done. And the thing with taking credit is that if you are worried, if you are worried about sounding arrogant or being viewed as being overconfident, if you worry about that, the likelihood that you are is pretty low.

00:27:51:18 - 00:27:52:20
Speaker 2
Hmm. Interesting.

00:27:53:02 - 00:28:02:00
Speaker 3
Pretty low. Now, maybe there are some exceptions to the rules, but generally overconfident. Very arrogant people don't care what other people.

00:28:02:00 - 00:28:02:07
Speaker 1
Think.

00:28:02:17 - 00:28:22:05
Speaker 3
And they only care about winning. So they don't say statements like, I don't want to pat myself on the back. They're like, I'm going to pat myself on the back with both hands and ask about yours. Like, that's literally what they're going to say. And so I encourage my folks that do tend a little bit more towards their I, I absolute will become so humble that I can't take credit.

00:28:22:05 - 00:28:46:17
Speaker 3
I'm like, you need to take credit. Because when you take credit as a leader, if you have done something great and someone else sees you, celebrate and acknowledge that and take credit for your knowledge, that gives them permission to do the same for themselves. And that helps build everybody in the community up. Because when we celebrate our wins and we don't bury them down, we create an atmosphere that says we love winning and we don't have to be jerks to do it.

00:28:47:06 - 00:28:49:20
Speaker 3
We help each other win.

00:28:49:20 - 00:28:56:02
Speaker 2
I don't have anything to add to that. I'm just going to just get a move on to my to my final question, I think.

00:28:56:03 - 00:28:57:03
Speaker 1
It's like I don't know what.

00:28:57:03 - 00:28:57:23
Speaker 3
To say.

00:28:58:13 - 00:29:05:19
Speaker 1
The only thing better than me winning is someone that I like and root for winning. And if we can win together, that's my guest. That's the best.

00:29:05:19 - 00:29:16:06
Speaker 3
Feeling in the world, isn't it? It's. It's being both an individual contributor and a team player. It's the best of both worlds. You don't have to pick. Yeah, actually, I don't know.

00:29:16:10 - 00:29:27:11
Speaker 2
Solely. That is. That is something that's great. I love it too. So where should people who feel like they have imposter syndrome, where do they turn to? Who should they talk to?

00:29:27:23 - 00:29:52:06
Speaker 3
Oh, man, that is a great question. First of all, please do talk about it with your leaders. Talk about it with your teammates. Talk. Talk it out loud. Because what I know is a lot of us have conversations inside of our heads. They're generally crappy and we don't have anyone to bounce it off of. So the more that you can share with someone that you trust in, someone that you know is going to offer a place of support, that's not going to try to fix it for you.

00:29:52:06 - 00:30:11:21
Speaker 3
So I'm sure you guys talk about this at most or two, like a leader's job. I'm not necessarily here to fix your problems. I'm not here to be a vending machine for answers. I'm here to guide you along the way. And so talking with your leaders, talking with teammates, talking with a professional coach, of course, I have to say that for my own business, I talk to someone.

00:30:11:24 - 00:30:32:05
Speaker 3
There's lots of different resources that you can read and people have different takes on this. Like I said, this wording around imposter, you start down the Google road, you'll find differing takes on it. But conquering doubts is meant to be a job that you do with someone else. So professionally, it's your coworkers. It's a leader that you trust.

00:30:32:05 - 00:30:51:06
Speaker 3
It's a mentor or even a mentee. Because sometimes I find with my mentees that it really helps them to hear me process through my doubts, giving them the opportunity to have a totally different perspective. I have a mentee who is 30 and she comes to me with stuff that I'm like, I've never thought about it that way. So brilliant.

00:30:51:08 - 00:30:59:12
Speaker 3
So when you say, talk to someone like Who should I talk to? Just partner anybody, Anybody that you trust and value their opinions.

00:31:00:13 - 00:31:25:08
Speaker 2
I agree, especially on the mentorship portion. I mean, you can talk to anybody, right? You can basically talk to anyone but mentees, especially younger ones that, you know, we've seen over the last few months and years, the rap, if you will, about rap that the younger generation are receiving. They have a lot of knowledge that some of us that are of a different generation do not have.

00:31:25:08 - 00:31:44:04
Speaker 2
And so I enjoy having sit downs with folks who enter Moesha and really anywhere that have that piece of information that I don't have. I mean, I hate to say it, I'm not a TikTok user. I've said it on this podcast before. I don't own a TikTok. I've seen my oldest son use it and see it, so I don't partake in that.

00:31:44:04 - 00:31:50:03
Speaker 2
But I get so much information from talking to people about that. I don't I still don't see things.

00:31:50:04 - 00:31:51:11
Speaker 1
So yeah.

00:31:51:12 - 00:32:15:14
Speaker 3
Really leave some room for someone else to teach you something. We have room for someone else to teach you something in 100%. The generations that are below us you want to talk about emotionally intelligent, super savvy folks. They are eons beyond ever knew. And so we could talk about that on a whole different podcast.

00:32:15:15 - 00:32:33:15
Speaker 1
If you look, there are papyrus scrolls that are, you know, a thousand or more years old that someone wrote down about how terrible this upcoming generation was. That is a constant throughout recorded human history. The old people back then who I guess we're like 35, you know, and near death because.

00:32:33:19 - 00:32:34:21
Speaker 3
If they even made a thousand.

00:32:34:21 - 00:32:54:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly Like they're complaining about this next generation coming up with them how the world is doomed because all of these kids are terrible. That has been true of every generation. The next generation coming up is spoiled. They're all ridiculously unintelligent. They don't care about anything and we're all doomed. Yeah, that's been going for about 2000 years.

00:32:55:02 - 00:32:56:04
Speaker 2
And we're still here.

00:32:56:13 - 00:33:01:20
Speaker 3
And we're still here. Yeah, they are the only thing that will keep us still going. So let's try.

00:33:02:17 - 00:33:03:12
Speaker 1
Let's treat them well.

00:33:04:02 - 00:33:04:22
Speaker 3
So, my gosh.

00:33:05:10 - 00:33:11:02
Speaker 2
And with that, we'd like to thank Alex Perry for joining us today. Alex, it's been a great conversation. Thank you very much.

00:33:11:10 - 00:33:13:20
Speaker 3
Thank you guys so much. I appreciate you having me.

00:33:14:22 - 00:33:32:03
Speaker 2
Thank you for listening into this week's edition of ASCII Anything presented by Moser Consulting. We hope you enjoy listening to Alex Perry talking to us about impostor syndrome. Join us next time where we continue to dive deeper with our resident experts on what they're currently working on. Remember to send us your ideas or topics. We are social media feeds.

00:33:32:07 - 00:33:53:08
Speaker 2
In the meantime, please remember to give us your rating and subscribe to our feed wherever you get your podcasts. Until then, take those doubting thoughts out of your head. So long, everybody go.